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00:11
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My name is Judy Dlamini, |
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it's an honour to be your host |
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00:16
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on Why She Leads podcast |
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00:18
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by Standard Banks CIB. |
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00:21
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In this series, Standard Bank CIB
shines a light on powerhouse dealmakers, |
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who happen to be women, |
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and with me, I have Marilyn Maki, |
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00:35
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who's the Head of Energy
and Infrastructure Finance. |
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00:40
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Welcome, Marilyn Maki. |
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00:42
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Thank you, Judy. |
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00:44
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Coming from the Eastern Cape,
is this what they expected |
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00:48
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you to be, the powerhouse that you are
today? |
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00:52
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One has to say no,
because the time that we come from |
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00:57
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the era that we are born of
simply did not expect that a woman, |
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01:03
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a black woman from the Eastern Cape,
had this as a trajectory. |
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01:07
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So I grew up in a world
which was extremely matriarchal. |
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01:11
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My mother and her sisters,
were the powerhouse of our family, |
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and as such,
girls were also empowered in our family. |
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01:19
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So when it was discovered that, in fact,
I was quite bright and intelligent, |
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01:24
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that was not something
that was, sort of honed into |
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01:28
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“Well, she'll make a great wife and at least
she has her looks”. |
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01:31
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My parents were very clear |
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01:33
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that education was
was absolutely essential to underpin |
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01:36
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what my, you know, my trajectory
was looking like at the time. |
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01:39
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So I've always been someone who's
been encouraged in my family to do better. |
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01:43
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Well, that's great. |
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01:45
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Why Financial Services? |
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01:47
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Completely by accident. |
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01:50
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So I actually was |
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01:53
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very much of an arts
and creative type of student. |
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01:57
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In fact, it was believed
that I was going to go on to be |
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02:00
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an actress in Hollywood, was the idea. |
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02:03
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But my mother, again,
very clear on the fact |
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02:06
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that for the amount of money
that she had paid, |
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02:08
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I was either going to be an astronaut
or veterinarian, one of the two. |
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02:11
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And so I ended up actually pursuing law |
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02:14
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as my undergraduate
and graduate training. |
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02:18
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And then I had no idea |
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02:20
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that in banking, actually, there was
anything called Investment Banking. |
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02:24
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Banking was always the teller,
the lady who helped you to get your money. |
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02:27
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And so you didn't know
that there was a career in this. |
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02:29
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And so when Standard Bank found me
some 26 years ago, by the way, |
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02:35
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for the graduate programme. |
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02:36
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And they were telling me |
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02:37
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all these amazing things that you could do
even though you had a legal background. |
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02:41
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I was amazed
and totally folded into the space, |
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02:44
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and therefore, here we are. |
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02:46
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Yeah, it's a beautiful story. |
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02:48
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Tell us about your journey at the Bank,
Standard Bank. |
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02:51
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So I am a child of Standard bank. |
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02:54
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I arrived here, as I said, on a graduate
programme and have never left since. |
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02:59
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Standard Bank has been my university, |
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03:02
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has been my adventure in life, |
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03:05
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and I have managed to do so much
in this organisation that |
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03:09
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one would think I'd had four jobs
in four different organisations. |
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03:13
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I've seen the entire African continent,
something one never dreamt they would. |
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03:14
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I've seen the entire African continent,
something one never dreamt they would. |
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03:19
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Growing up,
I have lived in the United Kingdom, |
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03:22
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all under the auspices of my career growth
in the organisation. |
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03:26
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And it's been such a privilege
to work in a space |
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03:30
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where you are actually allowed to explore |
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03:33
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many of the
things that you wouldn't get to do, |
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03:36
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I think,
if you moved into a new organisation. |
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03:38
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So being a child of of the Big Blue,
I think for me has stood me |
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03:42
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in really good stead and a fantastic
journey of different kinds of jobs. |
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03:47
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I have done strategic work
in the CEO's office for a period. |
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03:51
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I have, as I say, been in London
doing oil and gas. |
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03:54
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I have spent time on the continent
currently, which is what I do |
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03:58
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looking after various business
units across on a Pan-African basis. |
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04:03
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So my journey here has been a full one, |
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04:07
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one that I wouldn't,
I wouldn't change for anything. |
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04:09
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Yeah. You mentioned you went to the UK. |
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04:13
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What brought you back to South Africa? |
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04:15
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You could have stayed in the UK. |
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04:19
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I cannot express my love |
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04:20
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for this country, in enough words, I think. |
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04:25
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So yes,
do I miss London? |
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I do.
I miss the efficiency, I love |
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04:28
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that trains will run
until whatever time you need. |
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04:31
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I love that
I can come home from work at nine, |
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04:34
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remember I don't have milk, and walk |
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04:35
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downstairs somewhere in a safe environment
to pick up |
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04:39
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some milk or a bottle of wine. |
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04:42
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But you can't take away
what we have here. |
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04:45
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You can't take away what
we have as the weather. |
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04:47
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You can’t take away |
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04:49
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You can't take away
what we have to fight for actually, |
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04:54
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and so, honestly |
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04:56
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when it comes time to vote |
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04:58
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I know why I vote
because we have so much to fight for. |
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05:01
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So it was not a conversation
or a question about returning home. |
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05:05
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Now challenges along the way. |
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05:07
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Surely there were challenges? |
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05:09
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Challenges along the way
I think are a number of things, I think. |
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05:14
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But the one I would kind of go back to
is, is success at an early age. |
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05:19
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I think women have to, or young young women |
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05:22
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or young professionals
have to know how to manage that. |
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05:25
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I think when it comes at you so fast,
sometimes you are actually distracted |
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05:31
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by the success of it all,
that the excellence of it may be lost. |
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05:35
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So for me,
that was a big thing, was to say, gosh, |
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05:38
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and the reason I say this,
I was an executive at Standard Bank |
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05:40
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at the age of 29,
which was extremely early, |
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05:44
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and I think it was a lot to come to bear,
you know, to understand |
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05:47
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who you were in this process
and what that means. |
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05:50
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And so, yes, that I think
is a challenge, own your greatness |
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05:54
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as soon as you can, because then it will
take your trajectory a lot further. |
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05:58
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And then I think also trying to juggle
the world of |
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06:03
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the career versus what you are
you are becoming as a woman. |
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06:07
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You know, there's
so much being thrown at you all at once. |
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06:09
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It's your career. It's
your choice of partners. |
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06:12
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It's to moving into a new home,
having children. |
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06:15
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It's a lot, |
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06:16
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especially
if you are a little bit of a perfectionist |
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06:19
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because you're trying to do it all
so well. |
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06:20
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Yeah.
And you actually, |
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06:23
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are you the type of person that doesn't go
and ask for help when you need it |
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06:27
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because you have to do it all?
All myself? Yes, |
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06:30
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listen, I've learned, |
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06:31
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I think, to be a lot kinder to myself,
a lot better at asking for help. |
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06:37
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I tend to be the shoulders
for everybody else. |
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06:39
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And so that's been my kind of,
I think, burden on myself |
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06:43
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when I actually discover
that you can ask other people |
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06:45
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for help and absolutely available,
people are wanting to help you. |
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06:48
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How do you unwind then? |
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06:52
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Love to spend time with family. |
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06:54
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So very close with my family. |
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06:56
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As I said, we're a gaggle of girls predominantly,
very matriarchal, my sister, my aunts, |
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07:02
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and then, also time with friends,
very close friends. |
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07:06
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I have a small |
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07:08
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group of friends based all over the world,
but, you know, lots of time spent, |
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07:13
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whether it's on the phone,
video conferencing and so on. |
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07:16
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And then I love to be active. |
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07:17
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I swim every day
and I am now a new golfer, |
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07:23
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in my old age, and also play tennis
once a week with a group of friends. |
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07:30
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So different groups
but lots of activity, yes. |
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07:33
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But that's also healthy for your mind,
for your body, your soul. |
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07:36
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Huge. |
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07:36
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Yeah. Yeah. |
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07:38
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I have to take you back. |
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07:40
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If you were to tell a 12 year old, |
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07:45
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they'll ask you, at 29 you were an executive. |
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07:48
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Tell me the three things
that put you there. |
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07:51
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So I think it has to do with people
identifying you. |
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07:56
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So being seen is a very important thing. |
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08:00
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And I'll tell you why I say that,
is because it actually is for me |
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08:03
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what underpins, I guess, the human journey. |
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08:07
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We're all here to be seen and to have
people bear witness to our lives. |
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08:11
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And when people see you, then somehow
they find you, they curate you, |
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08:16
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they will they will kind of
have this interest in you that says, |
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08:19
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how do we get more out of this individual? |
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08:21
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And I think that was one of the things
that I think I had. |
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08:24
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I was very bubbly |
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08:27
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and I was extremely...
It can’t be in the past tense. |
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08:31
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You are bubbly.
yes, I remain so. |
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08:33
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In fact, I think my family
used to, behind my back call me, |
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08:37
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I had a nickname called Vivacious. |
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08:41
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And so that kind of really helped me, I think,
I’m very gregarious. |
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08:44
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So I love meeting people
and I think that was an important piece |
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08:47
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because you will be seen
if you're engaging the world. |
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08:50
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Mmm. |
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08:51
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And then I think the second one
would have been |
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08:55
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finding the ability
to get out of your own way, |
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08:58
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you know, so again,
if you think about our history, |
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09:01
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if I was a child
growing up in the eighties, |
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09:03
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you being told that you're black,
you're being told that you're a woman, |
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09:04
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you being told that you're black,
you're being told that you're a woman, |
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09:06
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but you actually are saying,
that will not be in my way. |
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09:10
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And so the you that is being identified,
you have to get it out of your own way. |
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09:10
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And so the you that is being identified,
you have to get it out of your own way. |
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09:15
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Yeah. |
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09:16
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And see yourself
as equal to everyone else. |
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09:18
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Correct. |
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09:25
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What would your son say |
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09:27
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about you as a mum? |
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09:28
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Oooh! |
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09:32
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We get along as friends
now that he is much older, |
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09:36
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he's 26, and the one thing he does know |
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09:39
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is that, one, he is supported
no matter what is happening. |
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09:44
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And that's the comfort that I think
children should really be able |
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09:47
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to hold on to for as long as they can,
because the world is quite tough, |
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09:51
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but also knows that there's
a full stop, right. |
|
09:55
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So he knows when I'm using his full
name and I'm saying, Khanyi Maki, he knows |
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09:59
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but now it's actually no longer
about anything he can get away with |
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10:03
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I'm onto him. |
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10:03
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So... but I think he you know, recently
I celebrated |
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10:07
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as I was telling you,
that I am old, my 50th birthday. |
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10:10
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Oh wow, that's amazing. |
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10:11
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You carry it well, |
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10:14
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Thank you |
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10:15
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And he spoke at my birthday and he,
you know, beautiful descriptions, |
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10:19
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and to have
I guess, other people speak of you and hear |
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10:22
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what you've kind of achieved
and been able to be in. |
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10:25
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And he used the words to describe me,
which was the Rock of Gibraltar. |
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10:29
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Oh wow,
yes, that's beautiful. |
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10:32
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What is it
that people don't know about you? |
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10:38
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People don't know about me, |
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10:40
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that in fact, I am an introvert. |
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10:43
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What? |
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10:44
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Yes. |
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10:46
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I'm an introvert. And let me describe it, |
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10:48
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I mean, not necessarily
going into the psychological description |
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10:51
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of introverted, but I really actually
comfortably gain energy from myself. |
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10:57
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And I love people. |
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10:58
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I'm gregarious and as I say,
but I am one of these individuals |
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11:02
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who can spend weeks by myself
and go away on a holiday by myself |
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11:07
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to read, to kind of re-energise and then
bring bubbly Marilyn back for the year. |
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11:12
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Yeah. |
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11:13
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So a lot of people always say, and in fact,
funny enough, that's exactly what my son |
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11:16
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and I were engaging about while
we were on holiday recently |
|
11:19
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and he was saying, “But Mum, |
|
11:20
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you seem like |
|
11:20
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you're always ready to engage with people”,
I said it takes a lot of work, actually. |
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11:24
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Yeah. And I breathed into it actually. |
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11:27
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It's not something that just, kind of, I do,
as a natural piece, but it does surprise |
|
11:32
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a lot of people that I actually I see
myself as an introvert. |
|
11:34
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Well, I got surprised myself. |
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11:37
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What are you most proud of? |
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11:39
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So I get asked this question
actually quite often, |
|
11:43
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and I think people
then correlate that with an achievement |
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11:46
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and what have you achieved
that you can retrospectively look at? |
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11:48
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And and I tend to try to look at it
a little bit differently in that I think |
|
11:53
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my greatest achievement
is myself in ten years time. |
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11:56
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And then in ten years
my greatest achievement will be myself |
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12:00
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in a further ten years time. |
|
12:01
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So you just chase yourself,
you know, because otherwise, |
|
12:05
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if you always looking back, you then
tend to be tempted to mark that moment |
|
12:11
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and then allow yourself to relax
because, well, could I ever better that? |
|
12:15
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I really did so well. That was amazing. |
|
12:17
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I think for me
it's about chasing yourself. |
|
12:19
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I love that. |
|
12:21
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I love that because you are where you are now, |
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12:23
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but what more, |
|
12:25
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what more can you achieve and where do you
see yourself in ten years? |
|
12:28
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what more can you achieve and where do you
see yourself in ten years? |
|
12:29
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Well, I referred to it |
|
12:33
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colloquially as my afterlife, |
|
12:34
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so when I'm no longer at Standard Bank, |
|
12:37
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as you know, I'm born and bred, grew up here,
came in on a graduate programme, as I say, |
|
12:41
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and then my whole trajectory
and career has been here. |
|
12:44
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So I know that what I am leaning towards
as I do |
|
12:48
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some of the things that are passionate
for me in the bank, like mentorship |
|
12:53
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for young women and upcoming
professionals, that I'm absolutely certain |
|
12:57
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that I will be seeking to
look at the education of the girl child. |
|
13:01
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We have a message
from one of your mentees. |
|
13:03
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Ahh! |
|
13:05
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Hi Marilyn. |
|
13:07
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I hope you're well
and enjoying the special time. |
|
13:10
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It is Moyahabo speaking. |
|
13:13
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When I joined the bank two years ago,
I was just very overwhelmed |
|
13:19
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by the sheer size of the organisation |
|
13:22
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and I felt like I could just very easily
get lost in the crowd. |
|
13:26
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Your decision to mentor me
just gave me the sense of belonging that |
|
13:29
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I needed, and the boldness and courage
to just just show up as myself. |
|
13:34
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So I just want to take this time
to just thank you for all of |
|
13:37
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the time that you invested in me |
|
13:40
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and to |
|
13:40
|
just let you know how much I appreciate
your invaluable contribution in my life. |
|
13:45
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Thank you for pouring in to me
as as much as you have have. |
|
13:50
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It is really much, much appreciated. |
|
13:52
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Thank you. |
|
13:54
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Well, that's beautiful.
Sweet, thank you. |
|
14:00
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Who was that for you? |
|
14:01
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When we began going to private schools in the
eighties, when it was just the transition, |
|
14:07
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when people of colour were being permitted
into integrated schools. |
|
14:12
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And the first school I went to,
which was a primary school, |
|
14:14
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at the end of the first quarter, |
|
14:16
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my mother came for
what was the parent teacher discussion, |
|
14:20
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and it was a convent school
and a nun called Sister Agnes, |
|
14:24
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she was German and I remember her very well, |
|
14:27
|
and she said to my mother,
your daughter's doing extremely well. |
|
14:29
|
She's very bright, nothing to worry about. |
|
14:32
|
One observation, though,
is that in the playground, she's a bully. |
|
14:37
|
Oh! |
|
14:39
|
So my mother was horrified. |
|
14:40
|
So great, |
|
14:41
|
now we've got this issue and a problem. |
|
14:44
|
And then, sister said, “No,
but that's not an issue at all”. |
|
14:49
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So then my mother said,
“How on earth can that not be an issue?” |
|
14:52
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She said because we're going to harness
that into leadership. |
|
14:54
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Wow. |
|
14:55
|
And that's literally kind of how |
|
14:57
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I think
a lot of what I kind of became was |
|
15:00
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and I wish schools understood that,
that bullies are just leaders in hiding. |
|
15:05
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And how do we try and make this epidemic
or pandemic of bullying |
|
15:09
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in schools actually become something
that can actually be quite positive? |
|
15:13
|
Exactly. |
|
15:14
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So that was her
and I think I remember her so starkly. |
|
15:16
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She was focused on me to say,
you know, you're going to become |
|
15:20
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what we think you can become. |
|
15:21
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And that's kind of,
I look back on that with fondness. |
|
15:25
|
And then another was my...
the deputy headmistress at St Mary's, |
|
15:30
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a lady called Jean Ratcliffe, |
|
15:33
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and we called her the rat, |
|
15:35
|
and she was a very strict
woman who spoke in a monotone. |
|
15:38
|
If you know the lady in The Devil
Wears Prada, |
|
15:42
|
something quite similar where, you know,
whether you were running in the passage |
|
15:46
|
or whether you actually had |
|
15:47
|
done something that warranted detention,
her monotone was the same. |
|
15:51
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“This is not the conduct becoming of
the ladies we're trying to cultivate”. |
|
15:54
|
I can hear her as we speak. |
|
15:56
|
And I had the privilege
of going back to St Marys |
|
15:59
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actually on our 30th anniversary
last year as a keynote speaker, |
|
16:03
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and she was there and she arrived
and she said, |
|
16:06
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I hear you've been saying things about me
calling me the rat. |
|
16:09
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I said, Yes. |
|
16:10
|
And and it was beautiful |
|
16:11
|
because I remember her
so well as being such a part of my life. |
|
16:15
|
And when she then said to me
at that luncheon, you know, |
|
16:19
|
you were my greatest achievement. |
|
16:21
|
Yeah, there it is. |
|
16:22
|
Yeah, it doesn’t get better than that, wow. |
|
16:25
|
It’s a lesson for parents and teachers, |
|
16:28
|
and 50 by the way is the new 30. |
|
16:31
|
It feels that way for me, |
|
16:32
|
so far embracing it. |
|
16:36
|
I run a really |
|
16:37
|
special mentorship programme called HIM, |
|
16:41
|
which stands for the High Impact
Mentorship |
|
16:44
|
within our energy
and infrastructure cohort. |
|
16:46
|
And we pick high potential women
who we think have got trajectory |
|
16:51
|
to become executives
and be leaders in our business. |
|
16:54
|
And we have currently got five women
on the programme, |
|
16:58
|
which I mentor personally
and very passionate about it. |
|
17:02
|
I'm a big believer in the fact
that we have to send the elevator down, |
|
17:06
|
something
that hasn't been done in the past |
|
17:08
|
and that women have
just got to learn to own. |
|
17:10
|
And I often speak of this idea
that when women get to the top, |
|
17:16
|
it feels as if the men kind of bring them
in, and then they |
|
17:19
|
whisper to them to say,
“You know, there's not many of us here. |
|
17:22
|
and you ‘re very privileged to be
here so don’t tell the others”. |
|
17:26
|
How do we change that? |
|
17:27
|
Because we should be
absolutely get to the top, |
|
17:29
|
and then that elevator has got to go down
and pick somebody else up. |
|
17:32
|
And and so mentorship
has always been about that |
|
17:35
|
because I was definitely fortunate
enough to have been picked up. |
|
17:39
|
So why would we not pay that forward? |
|
17:42
|
So how did it start? |
|
17:43
|
Literally, because I live in a world where
my boss and I get along very well. |
|
17:47
|
I wanted to do it. |
|
17:48
|
I told them
I wanted to do it and he said, do it. |
|
17:50
|
And so it's been running
for some years and successfully, so, |
|
17:55
|
we have such
a good time with the ladies. |
|
17:58
|
I always talk about our signature moment |
|
18:02
|
when we managed to get us
into a dinner with Oprah Winfrey. |
|
18:05
|
Oh wow, thats amazing. |
|
18:06
|
In the flesh for the evening
and it was fantastic. |
|
18:09
|
This year, we will actually host
the deputy governor here at the bank |
|
18:14
|
for an evening with insights
from her, on monetary policy and so on. |
|
18:20
|
So we're doing meaningful things. |
|
18:21
|
You know, it's not mentorship
in the ordinary course. |
|
18:24
|
It's really, really meaningful stuff
that I think changes the |
|
18:28
|
the young women's perspective
on what they should expect of themselves. |
|
18:32
|
And is there a winning
phase, are they your mentors the whole time? |
|
18:36
|
Do you bring others in? |
|
18:38
|
We do bring others in,
so actually it's come to the point where |
|
18:42
|
now my... the human resources team
have said to me, look, |
|
18:46
|
there's only one of you
and this thing is working so well. |
|
18:49
|
How do we try to create something
that actually becomes a platform? |
|
18:53
|
So 100%, because we want to take on
at least 15 to 20 women at a time. |
|
18:58
|
And so how do we then make that bigger? |
|
19:00
|
And that's actually what's so |
|
19:02
|
successful about it,
is the fact that it's |
|
19:04
|
actually attracted enough attention
that I'm receiving |
|
19:07
|
the offer of assistance from our various
stakeholders in the building. |
|
19:11
|
That's amazing. Well, well done. |
|
19:14
|
It's been a true honour to have this chat
with you. |
|
19:18
|
I'm inspired
and I can't wait to see what the next |
|
19:21
|
ten years brings with your leadership,
the powerhouse that you are. |
|
19:26
|
Thank you Marilyn. |
|
19:27
|
And I thank you so much for your time
and spending getting to meet you. |
|
19:31
|
I've known of you for so long, |
|
19:32
|
so to meet you in the flesh is a privilege.
Thank you. |
|
19:35
|
Thank you. Thank you so much. |
